Reap and Complete Stats and Scoring Update

Development
#21

Lol, I went through the forum-entries, here my thoughts:

As to sc-accu: As I understand, accu is calculated against admin-reaps, ok so far, I just wonder what it helps as long we get not detailed infos about what we did wrong for learning purposes.

And as I understand, If scythe B adds or removes much as compared to scythe A, this will have no influence to the accu for player A. That’s good, in my opinion it would be wrong to “play out” the 2 scythes against each other. Scything as second is much “easier”, no need for a log for example.

As Nik I’m in fav. of remaining 5k for 100 scs and 2.5k for 50 scs. nice and simple.

As Atani says: I normally SC only a little past 100 in each cell as it gives more scythes opportunities to get the bonuses. I do more in special situations, but in any case, when I play I make more points per hour than when I sc (even with the current bonus). I just take my time, and go in every cube, which is perhaps not what you want…. So the actual bonus per cube is ok for me. @amy: 25 per cube would not be ok anymore as explained above.

For big cells which sometimes stay long time in “need scythe” it would be good to give additional bonus-points (I would give more tiers every 50 cubes at 2500 points then). Here agree with @dragonturtle. You calculate: cubes of a cell divided by scythes doing sc-s (these are not as many lol) to evaluate and perhaps list cell then as “big cell-boni every 50 cubes” or something like that….

@Sorek: I think present system is better than awarding points per cube. One could just sc cubes in an easy Artifact-cell and get many points in a short time, and on the other hand let on the side complex cubes in Relics.

I agree with @Niks thoughts about the badges. I have no goals at all anymore, all need months or years to reach. Ok that especially the new players are covered with batches, but also the old players are looking forward to a recognition :slight_smile:

Also agree with Nik: degradation of the requirements for scout and scythe have not had the desired results.

As to chat: Hard for me to comment @Nik ¨s thoughts. I love Eyewire for science and the fun I get while playing, reaping, helping etc, and not for chat primarily, though chat with my best ew-friends is also important. And I have no idea what chat should be about to keep new players. This is not a normal game lol.

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#22

Will add my 2 cents about the promo thing.

Idk if we are seeing less retention with new scouts/scythes due to players not wanting the responsibilities or if it’s just players are getting promoted who would never have on the old system. The old system, a player had to want it, and work for it to get a promo. Now it seems like any semi active player is encouraged to accept a promotion as soon as they are eligible. So I think to these players, the promotion in and of itself has less value so they are less inclined to stick with it.

I don’t have a solution in mind. The old system of 4-6 months to be promoted to scythe was a bit excessive (but gave that position high value) but the new system of being promoted to scythe in 6 weeks seems too short (and cheapens it a bit).

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#23

Thank you all for your input! Since we’re trying to focus on improving the scythe-completing system, I will try my best to summarize your responses specifically to the questions I asked. (Please forgive me for not addressing your other comments at the moment).

  • You feel that points should be rewarded per every “batch” of cubes completed (ie. every 50 or 100)
  • More tiers will help you to have a better goal and you can strive to achieve a certain bonus
  • In addition to bonuses, making the badge levels better distributed and more achievable in a certain amount of time would also help to provide incentive

I will pass along the suggestions of dividing completing cubes by number of scythes or some of the other tier systems ideas.

I have one more question, based on a comment by susi:

Which type of cell do you find to be more difficult to complete?

  • Artifacts
  • Relics
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#24

relics are more complicated (nubs, autapses etc etc etc) which 1 scythe may miss and 2nd/3rd/4th scythe may find so they require more attention, artifacts take more time but are easier, (they take more time bc they grow slower) but they are usually “easier” to complete as they are long thin/thick branches with mostly dust missing lol, the occasional nub and missing branch and whatev AI messiness, (leviathan cells may have some tricky merger gaps) but overall lv1 cells are usually less time consuming per cube, espec if youre 2nd sc’er.

i hope this helps.

as to your other q’s idk i think b/c i complete a lot regardless more tiers or ways of rewards while they may be “why not, sounds ok” they don’t bother me as much (to have or not) but ofc i speak only for myself, others may want them/like them.

More badges in the higher lvls would be appreciated lol, idk if reaps and completes could have the equivalent “1m badge” of points category (something like getting a badge every 100k completes and 50k reaps? idk the specific ### but something like 1m pts every 1m pts), might help idk. at the very least itd give something to look forward to faster than “oh i got 250k reaps the next is 500k reaps then its 1m reaps…” and each of that translates to months or years lol. Might help keep ppl motivated.

#25

Yeah artifacts are generally easier but tends to linger a long time even after they are over wt 3 mostly i think because they often are really big and most people are not sc a lot in them when finished with their 100. And you can sc a long branch mainly from ov on perhaps less than 30 min. While in many relics you have to inspect most of the cubes you sc.

@nik do you think you would feel more motivated if you got one or two 1m badge every month + other badges or would you rather have something that is more difficult to get like a badge every 5m for everything from for instance 20m

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#26

for pts cat i think 1m per m would be nice, for reaps/completes idk but i think itd have to be something neither too small nor too big, just right “distance” wise, i think 10.000 reaps are quite nice a # or 20k bc theyre not 5k but theyre not 100k so you have an intermittent goal which never goes away, youll have a badge at 20k 40k 60k 80k 2 badges for 100k and so on, idk maybe that’s just me but having something like that makes it easier to “swallow” huge distances between things, it’s what i do when i spin bike xD

#27

that I reap a cube and it uncompletes the cube from all scs (scythe or admin) is part of a new feature or a bug?

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#28

same question as @Nseraf above, i just noticed that reaping an sc’d cube seems to remove all sc’s now?

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#29

Also, as evidenced by the discussions above, there is clearly much to be said here. As a suggestion, perhaps a voice chat discussion (i.e. meeting/hangout) would be helpful, to clarify some of the above discussions and get everyone on the same page, as to HQ’s intentions and preferred path forward?

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#30

@Nseraf ah, went back and read through the above (see @amy 's second post)

#31

I thought it’d be admin only…

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#32

yeah, it’s not clear to me either…maybe still need clarification on this

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#33

I don’t mind that it’s not, more than once I’ve reaped in a missing extension on a cube with 2 SC’s and thought to myself “well, this isn’t gonna get the same scrutiny as everything else”

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#34

As far as difficulty it really varies from cell to cell. Some artifacts tend to be really easy to do, although they are boring to do, others are difficult because they are traced by less experienced players so there is a lot to reap and they require very careful checking. Relics tend to be traced by more experienced players, so often there is less to reap, unless they are just really difficult cells. I feel like the big artifacts tend to linger, just because they are so boring.

I kinda like the idea of having tiers up to 200 cubes, that would double the incentive of what we are currently doing, but it wouldn’t necessarily make it so that one person reaps the entire cell, and there would still be plenty left for all scythes who want to do completing.

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#35

Regarding reaping nuking the completes off of a cube; I am seeing a few issues with this that I don’t know if y’all thought of or not. If cubes can be nuked by scythes, it’s going to create the need for some major rule clarification. As it is right now, in forts, we have been told that we don’t have to reap cubes that don’t need any changes, so those can just go ahead and be completed. But some players prefer to reap all cubes. So who is correct then? If a player decides to reap a cube that has already got completes on it they then nuke those completes, so the players who completed it at wt 0 are just out of luck? Same thing goes with dust reaping, We have been told to not reap for dust. So if I complete a cube that has a dust segment missing, another scythe can come behind and reap that dust segment in, and kill my complete, even though I was following guidelines. And what about missing overlaps? No one can predict where and when those are going to have to be reaped in

It seems that if this becomes a reality that y’all are going to have to set some hard rules regarding such things (and possibly some others) and figure out how to get all scythes on board with it so that players are not punished by other players for following hq’s guidelines.

Would it maybe be feasible to have a nuke button for the cubes like hwaaim mentioned, that had a big error that were already double voted and could use more watching, but otherwise not necessarily nuke all cubes that are reaped?

Edited to add: How will this affect how we log in the scouts log?

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#36

I’m with ya’ll saying that the current system where bonuses at 50 and 100 SCs are sufficient. As others have said I typically stop after ~110 (in case a few get lost) to let other scythes get the bonuses. Especially since a lot of the relics can be small (~300-500 cubes) and if you don’t act within a day or two of it being released you could miss out.

As for the nuking SCs after a reap… I’m not really sure. It makes sense in theory since any changes should mean that it needs to be rechecked as a whole. However, realistically this could cause a lot of duplicate work since typically reaps to completed cubes are usually small nub or branch additions, so even though it would make sense to have the changed parts rechecked, the reality will be that the whole cube will be rechecked up to 4 times.

Also others have mentioned that issues could arise based on the differences on when some players choose to reap and not, i.e. dust additions and such. This could lead to players losing their SC bonuses unexpectedly as well.

The ‘nuke’ button idea seems like a good compromise since it leaves it up to a case-by-case basis, although I can understand that the point of having a rule like this put in place is to force the recheck regardless of changes.

I wouldn’t mind seeing how this plays out in practice for a short while, and perhaps we could have a follow-up poll/discussion on where everyone stands after a month or so of instituting this new rule.

Also, if there does indeed end up being a nuke button, it should be a mushroom cloud with tiny scythes being blown all over the place.

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#37

"Imo this is (reap nukes) atrocious b/c it will pit scythes between each other, b/c we all make mistakes and this measure is highly punitive, doesn’t account for the factor that everyone makes mistakes, even if they spent 30mins examining “that” cube and i think it’ll create tensions and frictions between scythes/mystics (and between ranked players and admins), especially considering how like atani said, ppl reap for dust, when going through log, reap for dust in forts (i don’t mean dust that leads to nubs or branches, i mean plain asinine dust segs as 2nd reapers) and while now it’s only irritating to watch at in scythed over heatmap, with this thing it can end up costing each of us more than a few dozen scs per cell, so imagine doing 30 scs and ending up losing 20 or 30 bc ppl reaped dust as 2nd scythe either in fort while 2nd voting or going through the log. Did you deserve losing those scs? they weren’t nubs or branches or mergers, just someone reaped for 150 pts b/c they don’t believe either scying or going through log is worth their time otherwise?, and up until now I didn’t have a real problem with them doing that b/c reap didn’t nuke (it was annoying but it wasn’t the end of the world and it didn’t cost anyone anything).

Then there’s also the test extensions. 2 ppl sc a cube then a 3rd comes along, reaps in a test extension, 50/50 works out/is a merger. Up until now no prob, now? now 3rd nukes the other 2, then until it’s grown sufficiently, the same 2 or another 2 sc the cube, then if it works out fine, if not nuked again by person who made the test extension or someone dif. cube has to be 2/2 again. this is a huge loss of time and work, either 2 or 4 or 6 ppl have had to sc the same cube 2-3 times, why? Especially if the test failed and it was a merger.

Then there’s also the ppl who reap from review (can tell when someone has reaped and not logged 99.99% it’s from review b/c there’s no new entry button and ppl don’t flag/reap then. Reap from review, that person has no way of knowing if cube is sc’ed or not, they just see something in review they don’t like, reap and software progresses them to next/new cube no questions asked, no thought of log or what they -now- just nuked.

And yeah I am one of those who reaps (all) the corners in a fort, I know admins have said we don’t have to, but it is one of the few “pleasures” left in ew, wake up, have a fort and reap the corners others haven’t while drinking coffee, up until now it wasn’t bad for anyone regardless of if the cube was sc’ed or not b/c reap didn’t nuke the cube and since the cube was wt 0 pre-reap I didn’t fall in the “reaps dust as 2nd category”.

I don’t think I’ll continue doing forts, rg/sc, if this whole affair is put in place, it’s just not going to be worth it. I’ll just reap 20 cubes to have my name in cell for the future when it’s counted who did how much/what in the dig and leave it at that. I think zfish will most likely be the same, it just won’t be worth it with 2nd player nuking when he(/she) is reaping every cube, costing me scs and now reap/sc accu that I can see (notifs), even though it’s not offering me much of anything (even if i can see and jump to cubes in tabbed notif, we are not allowed to rereap/alter cubes in zfish after 2nd/admin have changed them so what’s the point of seeing i did bad? “You did bad look!”? sorry i have no need for that whatsoever)… maybe others are dif. and appreciate this kind of feedback, but for me it doesn’t do me anything.

I just think it’s a measure that adheres to what most (if not all) educational systems are doing nowadays, punish ppl for making a mistake believing that the punishment will teach them not to make the mistake(s). In part they are correct, the mistake(s) stop happening…b/c ppl stop trying. (in this case stop scying?)

And there is always the fear a less…honourable, vindictive person will abuse this, and just reap to remove scs from ppl they don’t like, imagine waking up to see not your daily count reduced but your overall count reduced by a few dozen or hundred or more cubes.

The nuke button seems like an even worse idea, to me, if admins can’t check who “hit” it. At least with reap you have a tangible “evidence” of who nuked the cube (and if you’re a mystic also why, with in-inspect review and scythed over heatmap). If anyone/someone/everyone can hit a button which nukes the cube, and no one knows who did it, it’s just a recipe for some major scythe-vision-like disaster (if it’s not already…).

Imo only admins should nuke, and if a scythe thinks a cube or a branch or a cell has been very badly sc’ed they can contact an admin tell them, give them their “evidence” of the bad sc’ and let them nuke whatever is to be nuked.

B/c even if rules are placed, I’m not sure how enforceable they’ll be, I mean just take me, susi, gala, atani, hwaa and tr77 (as an example) we each reap from a few dozen to a few hundred cubes per day (can even do that per hour lol), are admins determined/willing to do nothing else but monitor every single reap of every single (active) scythe just to catch the 1-2 reaps that may/do “break” the new “rules” (rules that up until now are not needed anyway, just “required” for this new reap-nukes-poop feature)? It sounds like a fulltime job to me, and assuming there’s an easier way to go about it that doesn’t require as much time, what? We’re gonna have demotions and/or points removal/ angry pms from admins to scythes telling them to not do “that” b/c a scythe (or more than 1) reaped dust or fort-sced-corner cube(s) etc? I don’t think that that that would lead to more scythes doing more scying than 50/100, I think this would lead to more scythes to stop scying altogether and/or leave the game.

Maybe the better compromise would be to modify the reap button, when you click it you get two drop down choises “reap and leave scs & reap and nuke” then if cube really must be nuked (large additions/removals, must be rechecked etc etc) one can nuke it or if not (reaping for dust, fort corner, only a small nub etc etc etc) one can leave cube sc’ed. Which ties in with a modified log MO as well, if you nuked the cube you re-place it as a scythe complete, if you didn’t you set to good.

add-on 1: another case which just happened (to me): i reaped a cube and sc’ed, 2nd scythe reaped over (nuking) but what they added was actually wrong/merger, they sced and re-logged as sc, i re-checked it and rereaped removing what they added, and re-sced. In this case my sc was removed wrongly as what the other person added was wrong, and if this had happened when i slept or was not logged in, a different 2nd scythe would/might have checked the cube from log reaped, then a 3rd scythe would have 2nd voted and sced sertting to good… to say i would have been livid in this case is an understatement of epic proportions.

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#38

lmao, starcraft 2 meets eyewire xD

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#39

As to reaping over a complete will nuke the complete

Very bad idea for me. Agree with most statements of Atani, galarun and nseraf above.

See no advantage, only less acknowledgement of my (and other scythe’s) doings. Every scythe-complete needs time, and even if I did wrong, I should get appreciated for my scything. In the present system, if I did wrong as first, second corrects, so what: cube is now correct.
If I reap a cube which has already been scythed by two, ok, then perhaps somebody should control my reap. My solution was: Give a new status “3rd sc needed” in log and trust the scythes they use this and do not punish the first scythes. (Or automate this).

As to scything-accu: Only interesting thing are heavy errors like missing branches and link to the error-cube for learning purposes. Rest like dust not important (who cares about 99.0 or 99.9% accu).

Also: sometimes sc-ing is for keep a cube away from being presented to normal players, as for example in fused mergers. So in your new system, if i reap such a cube as second by adding or removing something, all sc-s are lost and cube comes again to normal play ?

As to the dust-reapings: I admit, I tend to reap in dust. When I scroll through a cube, I automatically add all segs I see missing, so why at the end I should not reap in – it’s more true than not adding. While scything as first, missing one small seg, I usually do not reap in, just because I think, when I do, the second scythe needs relatively much time to edit (log entry etc), but even here, comes from my scientific background, I believe that every tiny thing should be added. Reaping dust in as second scythe: it will not harm much the first scythe, give you some points for your work, and correct neuron shape. But of course, first scythe should not be punished for having missed just dust.

The new system just leads to more time which must be spent, and frustrations and uncertainties for us scythes, for the same result at the end in scientific aspect. We scythes work together (not against!) and together we try to find the correct traces. Every scythe has his own style and helps in his own way. We all make mistakes, but at the end these are corrected and honored well enough in the present system.

add-on: just reaped a dupli cube, one small seg i had to remove, in a cube which was logged completed. Now a second scythe must come in and complete again as second. Weird - for nothing

add-on 2: nuking scythe-completes is wrong in principle, you remove actions from system which were actually done. And we loose much info.

add-on 3: i stopped sc-ing for the moment, just hope you think about soon and correct :pensive:

add-on 4: i usually tend to first sc a cube, then go into it and reap or not. I cannot do this anymore, since when i reap, i must do the sc again. I can learn that, that’s not the problem, but i often forget to sc at the end of a reap (that’s why i do it just at the beginning of inspecting a cube). A solution was to give us a complete-button inside the log-menu and inside the submit-window. Or automatising when i reap, i also get a complete. Actually, when i reap, i say cube is ok, so it is also “worth completed”.

Sorry for the many addons, i just see problems while doing and not always in advance…

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#40

I am against anyone removing the sc from a cube that have been completed, unless it is a really good reason for it (like old merger) and like nik is saying then it should be up to a admin to remove the votes to not make bad blood between players.

If we reap a cube it is usually a good reason for it and they should be sc so fast as possible so they are not assigned to non enfranchised players.

Even if someone reap in something in a cube after they are double sc they are still required to log the change (unless dust) and someone will cheek the cube. This is some extra work without any reward but still a lot better than if you have to do the sc several times. Also it will be more difficult to find the cubes missing sc when they are reaped.

I agree with most of the other things susi and nik have been saying, and will no longer do any sc so long this is in effect.

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