Update on scoring, accuracy, and Review Mode/Activity Tracker situation


#4

Yes, Chris says that's another tradeoff we may have to watch out for. If necessary we could change Level 2 spawning to accommodate it, like if people overall appreciated the new system and we didn't think Relics would grow so slowly that it became painful or something.


#5

I have long since thought "what if lv1's dropped from wt 3 spawning to wt 2 like lv2s?" now with last scythe wins while we will still need to be as vigilant as always it is much much easier to remove mergers no matter how fast they grow lol and it'll make lv1 cells grow faster which afik has always been a...wish of HQ lol.


#6

I need a bit of clarification. Are you saying that everything the first two tracers trace in gets added to the cube? As in player A traces their trace, and it goes in (kinda how it is now tbh, just nothing spawns from it) Then player B traces a completely different trace, do both traces go in? Do they both spawn stuff? then if they both spawn stuff, when player C puts their tiebreaker trace in, does stuff automatically just disappear? And then how does this affect player 3? if they both over and undercolor if a and b have put in drastically different traces?


#7

Here are some answers I've confirmed with Chris:

Are you saying that everything the first two tracers trace in gets added to the cube?

Yes.

As in player A traces their trace, and it goes in (kinda how it is now tbh, just nothing spawns from it) Then player B traces a completely different trace, do both traces go in?

Yes.

Do they both spawn stuff?

As long as Relics require only weight 2 to spawn, then yes. With Artifacts, no, because they still need weight 3 to spawn. Like annkri observed, Scythes may need to be more vigilant on Level 2, or we'll have to consider changing the spawn threshold; though like Nseraf observed, "last Scythe wins" makes this much less dangerous to experiment with than it would have been a year ago.

then if they both spawn stuff, when player C puts their tiebreaker trace in, does stuff automatically just disappear?

Yes, anything spawned from a segment that was only added by Player A or Player B would despawn if Player C didn't agree.

And then how does this affect player 3? if they both over and undercolor if a and b have put in drastically different traces?

Player C, acting as a tiebreaker, will get points for agreeing with either Player A or Player B. If Player C's trace is itself wildly different from both of the others (either because none of the three traces agree or because A and B agree but C does not), then they will be considered wrong, but that's not much different from what happens to Player C now.

I suppose you could argue that changing things this way treats TBs as less valuable, increasing confidence in the next two players, but I'm not sure that's bad. It may just be that we've been wrong to imagine that the first trace from an enfranchised player is sufficiently likely to be truthful such that it should be presumed truthful; one way to guarantee a more sufficient likelihood would be to raise the TB/enfranchisement threshold to something excruciatingly high, but even super talented players can experience a 10-15% accuracy drop sometimes, and we can't inhibit cell growth too much. So as we tweak our system, we may have finally discovered that although the ability to TB should still be special, practical limits on its specialness also create a situation where we need to trust the next two players a little bit more than we have been.


#8

is it possible to make sure player 2 is also a player that is over the TB threshold, think that would mean a lot less mergers than if a player with a accuracy on <=70% was player two


#9

Awesome, ty for the clarification. I think in light of your reply that it would be a really really bad idea to ever have lvl 1 cells need less than wt 3 to spawn. There are too many newbies that like to fill in the entire cube and it would be a lot of work on scythes to have to chase those down constantly.

And i suppose that if it becomes too much of an issue in the level 2 cells, y'all could easily raise the spawn weight to 3, i cannot imagine it will slow down growth too horribly much.

I love this idea!!


#10

dunno, i think the possibility of 2 noobs filling out the exact same cube whole is insignificant and it'd make the artifacts grow faster than turtle pace lol. (also new players who haven't done 60 have wt 0.1 lol) (and tbh with lsw and wt 3 reap anymore mergers in new/lsw cells are not a prob, one reap and they're away lol unlike msty carpet mergers lol....freeze plz? :stuck_out_tongue: )

and yeah I like ann's idea as well (and a lot less missing stuff as well lol)


#11

it wouldn't have to be 2 newbies tho. As it stands now in lvl 2 cells, if the first player does a normal trace, and the 2nd player decides to be rude and fills in the entire cube, Everything either player traced will be in consensus, which would mean an entire filled in cube will spawn. At least until it gets traced by a third player, or a scythe gets to it. I think it would be an error at this point to take the wt 3 away from level 1 cubes, especially considering how many new players think the whole point is to fill in the whole thing. And you and I both know that if someone traces fast enough, they can circumvent the disenfranchisement/tb threshold. It just seems like if the weight gets lowered enough, that we will be spending all of our time chasing mergers.


#12

I think so far it would be safe to say that while we wouldn't be requiring a certain accuracy for Player 2, we would not be dropping Level 1 spawn weight to 2 either— that would definitely be unwise. If you folks think Level 2 spawn weight going to 3 wouldn't be a problem, though, that's encouraging in case we needed to consider it.


#13

I wouldn't like that lol. (lv2 thingy)


#14

I dont think it'd be a problem. Id rather have higher weight needed to spawn stuff than be unable to play b/c ppl made so many mergers it crashed the game :stuck_out_tongue:


#15

I'd rather RG all the cells than increase spawn wt in lv2 lol or just not do the player 1 adds and player 2 adds all adds lol, some lost points as player 2/3 is not the end of the world. :stuck_out_tongue:


#16

why do you hate the idea so much? as scythes, it wont affect our reaping spawning stuff, and lvl 2 cells tend to get played more so they should still grow at a similar speed, and may even make retros more likely to be awarded in a reasonable time frame.


#17

What if to combat the inevitable slowness in cell growth/completion in lv2 if spawn wt is increased to wt 3 the wt cap in lv2s is lowered to 3 from 4? +1 player to spawn -1 player overall, and imo player 4 is not required anyways, it spawns at wt 3 4th not required lol, scythes can fix the errors 4th almost never does, if required.


#18

i am also not sure increasing the weight in lvl 2 is a good solution. Lowering the weight cap in both lvls could work for getting the cells finished faster but not if you need wt 3 to spawn because i think you would get too few available cubes. Also i am not sure if that could be a problem for people with wt 0,1 who is playing a lot of the time in wt 3 cubes if i have observed correctly. but like it is now the fourth player are not really adding lot of extra accuracy and can sometimes add mergers after the first scythe have cheeked the cube.
For me getting lower points for some cubes because of bad tb is not really that important but can see it beeing a big issue for new players


#19

0.1 wt ppl are not bound to wt cap, only completed cubes (admin/ 2/2 voted), it's why they can play wt 4 cubes as well as admin wted ones. :slight_smile:


#20

Im not advocating for raising the spawn weight currently, i just think it is a viable option if runaway mergers become an issue with the new system.

I think my concern with lowering weight cap to 3 would be cell availability. We seem to struggle with that at times currently, i would imagine lowering the cap would make that issue worse.


#21

Yes, the only reason any of us here are talking about spawn weight increase is because of how the new consensus threshold might promote more mergers. But that itself is (see top of thread) originally being discussed because of how we need to make certain changes in order to fix the discrepancy between Review Mode and Activity Tracker. We're going to try and change only what we need or what we can tell should have at least some positive effect, but there's this long chain of dependencies at play! I wouldn't worry about weight cap changes or spawn weight reduction for now.


#22

I have some "first use" feedback, on the scoring update, for lv2 cells.

There is indeed an increase of mergers in lv2 cells (1v1 no longer removes but adds) but the good thing is so far the increase in mergers has not meant "OMG RUN CARPETS EVERYWHERE!" but rather a 100%+ (if not more) increase in dupe cubes, for example I woke up today to 6+ dupe cubes in a single cell lol, which in my book is a good thing or the lesser of a worse evil lol.

I think if the update had been implemented without the duplicate function in place it'd have been a complete nightmare lol making the increase in spawn wt for lv2s a requirement, but (whilst I dunno what others think) I think so far with more dupes rather than more uncontrollably spawning mergers lv2 spawn wt can remain as is, imho.

If in lv2s we can reap from wt 1 (tb mergers) (officially allowed so from HQ) it'll go a nice way into having less dupes in lv2s.


#23

Thanks for the feedback, Nik! I'm glad to know the duplicate detector is helpful. If things continue in this pattern then perhaps we can discuss reaping TB mergers if a majority of Scythes would like it.